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Ohio Andy
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[*] posted on 7-11-2011 at 03:11 PM
160 thread



I made this post before i saw that the site was down and we lost threads. i was a little ticked when it was gone, so i am sorry if the tone is that.

What happened to the thread on the 160's that i started? I asked legitimate questions. I was out of town for a couple of days and i come back and it was gone. Maybe they were answered???

I have heard lots of rumors about this 160 issue and the committee. i am just trying to get some answers as a member.

So, I ask again. Where did the poll come from? Was the 160 committee involved in it? In the wording of the options, the timing, the responce? If the 160 committee was not involved, why not?

I was asked "why is the responce going to just one individual?" I have my BT now, so i can see it is going to a trustworthy person, but the question was legitimate as he did not know.

Randy, i asked you about some specific questions about densities and regulations of ALL of our neighboring states. You said you have this info, let's hear it (maybe it was in there). On Tman you stated those around us that are favorable to your position of gaining access to 160's, what about the other states? How about West Virginia? How about Kentucky? Or Michigan's convoluted regs? PA's with the definition of "water course" from their regs?

It seems as though i am in the minority on this issue, but i know i am not just speaking for myself based on conversations i have had with other trappers. I will happily be the dissenting voice for them as well.



[Edited on 11/7/2011 by Ohio Andy]

[Edited on 11/7/2011 by Ohio Andy]

[Edited on 12/15/2011 by Ohio Andy]




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[*] posted on 7-11-2011 at 05:03 PM


Andy, some of what you must have missed is, this came from the September board meeting, it was decided there to get the poll going. Response is actually going to two individuals, one for mailed in, one for e-mail.

Russ said he made copies of the thread, hopefully he has some information on there that Scott can use to pull up what was lost, if not, I'm sure it will be easy to start over, but lets see if Scott can come up with something first.




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 03:58 AM


Andy,

I'll try a shorter version.

Kentucky, Indiana, Minnesota, Iowa, North Carolina, Tennessee - 220's and down are legal on land.

Michigan - 220's and down are legal on land but not on public land.

Wisconsin - Less than 60 square inches is legal on land. Most 220's if not all would be legal as well as all 160's.

Virginia - 220's and down are legal on land but they can not be used with bait.

Illinois - 160's and down are legal on land. They allow up to 7 inches on land.

New York - 160's and down are legal on land. They may not be set with bait, they cannot exceed 6 inches, and no part of the trap can be more than 8 inches off the ground. The maximum you could set one off the ground would be 2 inches.

Pennsylvania - 160's and down are legal on land between the water's edge and the top of the bank. The law states that it is " unlawful to set bodygripping traps outside a watercourse, waterway, marsh, pond, or dam."

West Virginia - Bodygrippers are not legal on land. Doesn't matter what size. Interestingly enough it appears that you can set 330's in a half inch of water and be legal.

Population densities of the states are as follows:

Ohio 277 people per square mile.
Pa - 274
WVA - 75
Ky - 102
IND - 170
VA - 179
MICH - 175
MINN - 62
Iowa - 52
N CAR - 165
Wisc - 99
New York - 402
ILL - 223
TENN - 138

Before the thread was lost I was home for lunch and I believe some other questions were asked. I didn't have time to answer them then. Based on my bad memory I think one question had something to do with urban versus rural population. The recent census for the whole country said that 84% of the people in this country live in urban areas. I don't have a breakdown for each state.

I also saw a question or statement about setting coon snares in the trails along the creek and the catch circles not scaring other coon. They might not scare too many coon but some mink, not all, will avoid those torn up areas. I've seen the evidence in the snow before. The 160 is an excellent trap for the coon and the mink that run those trails. 110's are too small for coon and a lot of mink refuse to enter 110's especially in more open trails. The 160 helps to solve the problem. In the tighter more constricted trails the 110 works fine until the coon bulldozes his way over top of it.

If there are more questions, ask on here or U2U me. Now that season is here I may only get on here once a week for the next couple of weeks.

Thanks.




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 12:36 PM


That was my question about population distribution, Randy.

Distribution is a factor to be taken into consideration when looking at a matter such as this. New York state is the glaring example here. 402 is the listed population density. Take out the 5 Boroughs of NYC and there area and it is 208. ~75% of Ohio's density. 2010 Census data.

Do we have moderators on this site?

"West Virginia - Bodygrippers are not legal on land. Doesn't matter what size. Interestingly enough it appears that you can set 330's in a half inch of water and be legal."

***********
Definition.
"A trap is a device used to catch and hold animals and includes box traps, killer-type traps, leghold traps and snares."

Illegal act
"set traps with an open jaw spread of more than 6 inches except as underwater sets for beaver."

Illegal act
"set body gripping (killer) type traps for terrestrial trapping, but they may be used in water sets."

Taken from WVDNR

***********

It is clearly illegal to set a 330 in 1/2" of water.


This is a serious issue folks. I bring out the above points to illustrate the lack of thought brought forth in some statements that have been made on this subject.



Edit. Clarification of WVDNR quotes..Ric




[Edited on 9-11-2011 by Ric]




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 02:32 PM


Here is the link to michigan.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10363_10880-243436-...



[Edited on 11/9/2011 by Ohio Andy]




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 03:46 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Ohio Andy  
Here is the link to michigan.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10363_10880-243436-...

160's are areally the max on dry that without being in an enclosure from what i see there.


Public Grounds Only.
"All legal body-gripping traps of any size may be used if they are four or more feet off the ground without set restriction." This is on public grounds only.

On private grounds. "It is unlawful to set a body-gripping or conibear-type trap larger than 7.5 inches in width (as measured inside the jaw hinges) on drylands that are privately owned." Which the way I read this is up to "220" size trap set in any manner the user wishes.




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 06:34 PM


I missed that portion JD.



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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 07:13 PM


West Virginia - Bodygrippers are not legal on land. Doesn't matter what size. Interestingly enough it appears that you can set 330's in a half inch of water and be legal.

yep cept in march have to be underwater
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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 07:21 PM


Ric,

That is why I said "IT APPEARS". Any regs that I posted may have been misinterpreted by me, may have changed since I took them off the web or may not have been a complete set where I read them. Not an issue of "lack of thought." I do and can make mistakes.

We do have moderators. Your point? As if they would necessarily know. I'm a moderator and I made the mistake or didn't have the whole set of regulations at my disposal. I pulled all the regs 18 months or so ago so I don't remember the exact site I used. Thanks for finding the mistake.

Lets take the population of New York City out of the equation. Now do we get to take Clev., Columbus, Cinncinnati out of Ohio's equation which would drastically reduce Ohio's people per square mile. It's a 2 way street. Then can we take Buffalo, Albany, Toledo, Youngstown, Etc? Can we stop yet? Lets take the 84% as the census suggests. Where does that leave each respective state?

Andy and JD thanks for your input. See how easy it can be to miss something in the regulations of each state.




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 07:23 PM


FishDaddy,

Are you saying you can set 330's in a half inch of water except in March? If so where can this be found? Also what is the reasoning behind it?
Thanks in advance.




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 10:19 PM


Randy, on your observations in the snow when a mink shied away from the torn up area where did he go?...........Ron
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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 10:25 PM


Randy, sorry for another question but do you use a 5x5 bg for mink in trails?.....Ron
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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 11:39 PM


The point being that population distribution plays an important role in the discussion being had, not just population per square mile.

And that as important as the subject being discussed is. It deserves more to a cursory search of the web to glean the information used to support ones case, pro or con





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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 11:49 PM


Im curious about something. Weve heard the reasoning behind all of the pro 6" trap guys. I want to hear some reasoning behind the ones who arent. This is a legitimate question, not trying to "fire anyone up" as they say.

The only reasoning that Ive heard so far is because they are afraid people will catch domestics (cats and dogs). If that is the only reason, then I dont buy it. If the same restrictions were applied to them as they are snares, then I dont see a big deal. Dont use them on public land, and use common sense and ask the landowner if they have any roaming pets. I especially dont see a threat if they are not baited, between the bank lines (high water marks), and not elevated.

I personally think that it would be a great tool for those coon trails along creeks and undercut dry banks.




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[*] posted on 9-11-2011 at 11:53 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Lt44  
Randy, sorry for another question but do you use a 5x5 bg for mink in trails?.....Ron


Im not Randy, but I have used the 5x5's in trails for mink, and still do. They seem to work pretty good for mink. I dont have very good success with coon though. Most of the few coon I catch in them are smaller coon. I bought them to use for coon, but mainly just use them for mink now and hope that I may snag a passing coon, but I dont expect it.




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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 02:18 AM


You guys might as well start your comments over, doesn't look like the old ones are coming back. Mike had a couple posts that were pretty good if he can get something similar back on, I know at least one other from Stackhouse.

Just remember, no attacks on a personal or positional level, they will be deleted, just give your opinions and experiences.




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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 03:01 AM


Quote: Originally posted by computer hater  
FishDaddy,

Are you saying you can set 330's in a half inch of water except in March? If so where can this be found? Also what is the reasoning behind it?
Thanks in advance.


no idea the reasoning behind it it says water sets here is the regs.
http://www.wvdnr.gov/hunting/Regs1112/General_regs.pdf
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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 03:05 AM


we got an otter season this year and allowed 1 season ends in feb but if we trap beaver in march (only thing we can trap in march)we are only allowed body grippers no foot traps so if we get an otter no way to realease it alive.
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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 08:42 AM


I deleted my last thread after thinking about it, I don't think this is a secured site, if I'm wrong let me know, although I believe what I said, I forgot that OSTA members isn't the only ones that scour our site, if it isn't secured, it would be best if I deleted it no sense in providing ammo...........Ron

[Edited on 11-10-2011 by Lt44]
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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 12:49 PM


Ron, you are correct, anyone can view this site, and as with any site I know of, if you can view it, comments can be copied and pasted from it, that's why we caution people about posting things that can be taken out of context.

The way you had your position worded in the first post, that was lost during the transition, was a little better to get the point across and be a little more politically correct.




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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 03:56 PM


If you simply discount the possibility of domestics being caught in 160's then you are really missing the issue. A cat and a small dog can be caught the same as a 20 pound coon. To discount this real possibility as an insignificant issue in this discussion is missing the discussion. How do our trapping right come under fire, by who and what is the motive?

Catching and killing some one's pet is the quickest way to losing land and losing a person who would otherwise be our ally in a fight to keep trapping and may become and advocate to initiate a ban. Trappers make up a small percentage of the overall population, therefore, we need the non trapping public on our side as much as possible.

A responsible, experienced trapper is not the one i am most worried about with 160's in his hand. It isn't Randy setting for mink. It is the 14 year kid out there setting in his back 10 acres with neighbors all around and pets running free. That is the trapper i worry about handling the potential future of our sport. If Mrs. Beakman's jack russel gets whacked in a 160, 20 foot off her property by Junior trying to catch a coon, that doesn't look good for trappers as a whole. ESPECIALLY if he was legally set. Keep in mind, Junior has no mentor or family member to show him the way and he took his test online, so he has no interaction with trappers that could teach him the ethical way to set and where.

You may says its a stretch, but i think we all know that it is not.

I have talked to experienced trappers that have made comments about breaking the law with regard to BG's. Some, when confronted with the actual law seemed to be unaware of the current size restriction. So let's not play naive and pretend that if the use of 160's are restricted that it won't bring widespread use by uninformed users in a non-legal manner. Yes they would be breaking the law and we could distance ourselves, but in the poll of public opinion does that really matter? If it were on the ballot and Mrs. Beekman shows the photos of her beloved Jack, will that matter to the uninformed?

I am sure this post goes to far, but if we are going to have an open discussion about the realities of this matter, then these possibilities need discussed, especially when we have potential real issue of domestic confrontation. In a foothold, that animal lives and could be released be the owner, in a 160, its dead. What else is there to the matter? That is really what the issue comes down too. Do we as an organization what to to open our sport to the possibility of more negative interaction with the general public that are unwilling to control their pets? Or worse yet, the hunters that would otherwise be on our side?

I emailed KD to review my post, i made the change he requested.

[Edited on 11/10/2011 by Ohio Andy]

[Edited on 11/11/2011 by Ohio Andy]




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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 05:55 PM


a 160 is only an inch bigger trhan a 5x5 am i right?
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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 06:22 PM


By measure FD, 11 square inches of opening difference ,this makes a world of difference.Take a 5x5 and hold it to a 6x6 you'll be able to see what i'm talking about.......Ron
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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 06:28 PM


O.A very well put your more politically correct than my thread I deleted lol.......Ron
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[*] posted on 10-11-2011 at 07:17 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Lt44  
By measure FD, 11 square inches of opening difference ,this makes a world of difference.Take a 5x5 and hold it to a 6x6 you'll be able to see what i'm talking about.......Ron


A 6x6 is 44% bigger than a 5x5 when you look at the area of the opening.




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